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CITI BANK
Data is the “NEW OIL”, Use it to benefit your customers
Citi is aiming to be a much simpler bank. One that is able to be responsive to its customers. We operate in 96 markets globally and that by itself makes for a fairly complex global financial institution. So, one of the work-streams in this global transformation initiative, which is a multi-layered effort that the bank is undertaking, is in the area of data transformation. – Martin Mugambi, CEO Citibank Kenya & East Africa.
OO: If you are talking about innovation, one of the first things you & actually going to be talking about is technology. To what extent has technology transformed Citibank? I know sometimes you call yourself technology company that offers financial services.
MM: It’s a great question because there are interesting developments in financial services today, especially in Kenya, which is one of the most innovative markets in Africa in the adoption of technology, especially at the convergence of technology and finance creating what we know as fintechs.
You made reference to the fact that Citi is sometimes referred to as a technology company with a banking licence and I think that,s roughly accurate, why? Because if you look at Citi Kenya -we are 49 years old in this market going on to 50 next year -a good portion, about 98% of all our transactions are automated. 98% of all customer transactions are done electronically and using digital platforms.
This is not something new for Citi. What I would say is that, coming out of the two years of the Covid-19 pandemic, we realise that a lot of our customers have adopted digital models and in so doing are conducting a lot more of their transactions digital, electronic platforms and other E-commerce platforms on different channels. Which has then meant that as we support our customers, we ourselves have increased the volumes of transactions we do digitally. Before this, the percentage was in the region of 93%- 94%. Now, we’ve pushed it up to 98%.
Yes, we still have some manual touch points that we are working on. These manual touch points obviously tend to be in the our back-end processes, but for the most part the percentage of transactions that we do digitally has gone up. To me, that demonstrates two things. One, that we are traveling the technology journey with our customers. Two, technology is an accelerator to the right strategy, removing friction out of the customer experience and that’s why we embrace technology in how we serve our customers.
So yes, we are very much a technology company with a banking licence
OO: One of the things that the use of technology gives us is a lot of data and the trend right now is that companies/ banks are starting to rely on the use of data in decision making. To what extent are using data to make decision at Citibank?
MM: Citibank is going through a global transformation process. This is at the very top of the organisation, at the at the top of Citigroup itself. And why transform? Citi is aiming to be a much simpler bank. One that is able to be responsive to its customers. We operate in 96 markets globally and that by itself makes for a fairly complex global financial institution. So, one of the work-streams in this global transformation initiative, which is a multi-layered effort that the bank is undertaking, is in the area of data transformation. How we use data – how use customer data, our own data and where that data sits within the organisation so that we can harnes it and use it efficiently and more importantly, to drive insights for our customers. One of the example I can give is on how we use data here in Kenya. We are a very strong payments bank. We make global payments and domestic payments, we also make instant payments for our customers.
One of the things customers always want to know is the status of the payments. Where these payments are in the process. Have they been completed? Have they gone through as anticipated? So, having data around payments is very critical to improving the customer experience in payments. How are we using technology to improve that customer experience? We have a customer platform called Citi payments Insights. This payment platform tracks payments from the minute you release it from the comfort of your own office through an electronic platform interface right up to the point that the beneficiary receives that payment. The customer is able to track that payment. So by using data across that ecosystem, we are able to attract payments end -to-end. This is for international payments as well, not just domestic payments.
The technology itself is not a strategy, technology is an accelerator to the right strategy. Our strategy as a bank is reflective of our ambitions and aspirations to serve our customers and then when we overload technology as an enabler, as an accelerator to the right strategy then that allows for improvement in customer experience.
OO: It is often said that if you can’ t measure it, then it’s not important. As much as we talk about innovation, let’s talk a little more about measuring the use of data. There is something called Data Maturity and one of the ways of measuring your efficacy in terms of your use data is something called the Data Maturity Index (DMI). Are these things that you have in your organisation.
MM: Data Maturity Index is one of several metrics that organisations use in evaluating how efficiently they’re using resources when it comes to data. As I mentioned, we collect data from multiple points in the organisation -when we are opening customer counts, when customers are transacting and when customers are evolving into different products, so we are always utilising data. Now data maturity, as name infers is really about utilising data in quite a mature manner by having systems in terms of how the organisation uses data. So, when I look at Citi, we have data that obviously drives a lot of insights. This could be credit data, market data or operational data. Utilisation of that data is different across different parts of the organisation. So I think it is obviously a very large topic to to address in the siting of this nature.
There are one or two things that you should take away. One, data as you probably know and as has been referenced before is the new oil. If you are not able to measure how you’re using your data, if you’re not able to identify correctly where data sits within your organisation and if you’re not able to manipulate and interrogate that data for it to drive insights for your customers and monetise that data, then you’re clearly missing out a very big benefits of having data as an organisation. So data as the new oil, is really how you monetise it and use it for the benefits of your customers within the organisation.
Two, utilising data also comes with responsibility. There’s a lot to be said right now around data privacy, data security and where data sit in itself. A lot of organisations are now having data sitting with in public or private clouds depending on the business model that they are driving. Data security and privacy is paramount now for organisations and especially in protecting customers and in how they allow organisations to use that data. For Citi, we have a very involved data-privacy construct where we not only look at privacy and security, but also where the data sits. We have data that sits on most cloud platforms, not necessarily physically present in the countries that use that data, but sitting in data centers and in cloud architecture away from the utilization of the data in our various 96 countries where we’re doing business globally. Data architecture by itself is quite an evolved conversation for us in Citi, but more importantly how we use the data we currently have from our customers to drive insights and for customers to monitor this data is an equally important focus for us. So, DMI is really a metric to measure the maturity of how we are using customers data across different elements of our organisation. That’s what we infer from that metric.
OO: I’m glad you brought up the issue of data security because it is a big topic right now. Apparently, data fraud is on the increase because the data is available in so many different platforms thanks to innovation. But I want to look at it within the context of customer experience. How would you say that customer experience at Citibank has changed as a result of these innovations that you have. There is AI, banks are actually able now to tailor make products for individual customers. Could you talk a little about the customer experience at Citibank.
MM: Customer experience is really where the rubber meets the road. At Citi, this is a very important topic in both the consumer and the corporate side of the business. As you know in Kenya, we only run a corporate focused banking business, we don’t have a consumer business here but none the less the construct of customer experience underlines how we approach our customers and how we serve them everyday. What do I mean by that? We measure everything. We track volumes of payments, we track transactions that are completed on our digital platforms. We track the transactions that for one reason or another are not completed, whether it is for sanction screening or another reasons that the end-to- end process of the payment may not be complete. We look at those metrics and through our customer experience forums, we try and understand why are we not able to complete that customer proposition and the payments pace. So, one of the things we do very religiously is look at the volume data because at the core, we are a money centre bank. We do payments globally.
Citi moves roughly US$ 4 trillion a day in terms of payments across the globe and these are payments for companies across our network in various parts of the world. With that level of volume, you can obviously appreciate, one, the level of systems that we have and the resilience of those systems and two, to move payments in such high velocity, you have to have an automated payment platforms across different geographies. So, what we do very well one, is we look at volumes of our payments, two, we look at where we’ve not had completion of payments for any reason whatsoever. Three, where we’ve got outliers or we’ve got insights that we need more information on. We so offer customers platforms so that they themselves are able to understand such outlier payment that have not been completed through a Citi payment Insight Platform or look at payments that are outliers and therefore could be potentially fraudulent or non-standard payments. This platform is called Citi Payment Outlier Detection.
Again, a customer is able to tell from their own offices such outlier payments. So in improving the payments experience, we also empower the customer to not just call a Citi platform or a customer care centre to enquire about a payment but they themselves are actually able through these platforms to understand if the payments have any issues. So if I look at just that area of payments alone, what we’re doing to improve the customer experience is big. Not only do we give them self service platforms, but we also track a lot of payments data across various channels so that we can keep improving and meeting that customer proposition.
OO: I know you were one of the first banks in the country to actually employ the use of Artificial Intelligence in monitoring payments.
MM: Artificial Intelligence is an incredible tool. We talk about generative AI at Citi. This is obviously a very important and it’s an evolving area. We are also moving forward with the right governance in this disciple because AI itself also has risks if not managed properly. A good example of AI in use in a lot of consumer banks today is what I would call Chatbots. In a consumer banking environment a customer can engage a Chatbot in typical transactions that do not require human interface. You can engage them electronically or through a voice management interface. Chatbots today are a good example of self-service use of AI through an interface that then helps a customer walk through a number of queries or menus to address a query that that particular customer has.
AI could also be used in our corporate sense. Citi uses AI for instance in some of our platforms that in the finance context matches open receivables versus open invoices in an automated manner. Using that AI platform, which is a platform that we’ve co-developed with a fintech by the name Smart Radius. We have a tool called Citi Smart Match, which essentially matches as I said open invoices with open receivables in a high-velocity business or industry. This is a very successful platform that goes towards solving a customer’s pain- point around reconciliation, using technology and automating it with AI that then helps that automated reconciliation in a manner that improves the client experience. That’s an example on the corporate side. We’ve employed that tool -Smart Match, here in Kenya to one of our customers. That also reflects the journey that were travelling in the AI space to improve the customer experience.
OO: Looking at the Kenyan market and across the banking sector you see a lot of diversification. I want to talk about it from a risk management perspective. There is diversification of products, geographical diversification and the whole idea, apart from growing revenue is also to manage the inherent risks in the Investments that you’re making. It seems to be accelerating. When you look at some banks including yourself the breadth of what you do is quite wide. There’s bancassurance and quite a number of banks are doing that right now. I’ve seen banks invest in things that are not their core banking business. To what extent is Citi diversified? What is the philosophy behind Citi’s diversification in terms of products and even Geography?
MM: The heart of any financial institution and a bank for that matter is risk-taking, right? We take risk and we manage risk and we serve our customers by ensuring that we are able to manage risk for them in a variety of areas. Credit risk is one, there is market risk and also operational risk that we manage so on and so forth. Your questions is making reference pretty much to our portfolio risk from a credit perspective, which of course we have diversification in terms of the industries where we do lend and put capital to work.
We have diversification in terms of the type of customers that we bank, so we have what we call a Selected Target Market criteria for selecting our customers. That is a criteria that we use across all our markets in identifying the customers that we are going to work with as an institution. Once we define those customers, we are then able to set certain parameters, what I’d call limits our risk acceptances with which we then engage those customers. So, coming out of two important events in the last 24 months, one being the Covid-19 pandemic, the other being the election in Kenya last year in August (which went very well) and the ongoing Russia-Ukraine crisis, when you look at them whether in isolation or combined cumulatively. For Citi Kenya business, these events meant that we had to go through the events without significant losses in our credit portfolios, why? Because Covid-19 occasioned a significant slowdown in the economy as you know. Two, customers also cut back on their spending on their Investment as the general slowdown kicked in. As we went into the election cycle. there was you tend to see customer business and volumes slowing down.
I want to come back to your question and point out two things. One during Covid-19 we had a general elevation of non-performing loans in the entire industry. The Kenyan banking sector has about 14% of non-performing loans on average today. What we did see as a result of the epidemic was that non-performing loans were elevated as customers struggled to meet obligations, as businesses, SMEs also struggled to on the back of the broader slowdown and what then transpired is that customers had non-performing facilities. As NPLs went up across the industry, the banking sector took certain measures to help their customers endure the pandemic.
What we did see was that Citi’s portfolio held relatively stable across the pandemic, our customers despite the challenges, despite the dislocation that occurred during that period also came out of it in relatively decent health. We didn’t have at Citi a significant increase in our NPLs which again comes back to those two points I made earlier around our diversification from a customer point of view. A fairly strong target market selection process in terms of our customers and the limits that we assigned to different Industries and to different risks. So, a lot of good learning from election cycle that we went through, because that was a credit cycle in and of itself. We’ve realised and we have understood and learnt that we have a fairly resilient credit model -credit selection and credit management model. Two, we also have a fairly strong customer selection construct that allowed us to have a very strong set of customers, who came through the pandemic in the fairly strong manner which reflected itself on the strength of our own credit portfolio at the end of the day.
OO: Ultimately for all these innovations, diversification and so on, the objective is to grow the business. I want to talk about the growth of Citi bank business and want us to compare the Covid -19 year, last year and Q1 of this year. What growth have you seen?
MM: I’ll take you back a little bit. You ask about growth and you cannot talk growth without numbers. So, we look at FY 22, 21 and 20. In 2022, growth in Kenya was north of 5% to 5.5% GDP. In 2021, it was around 7.6% and then in 2020 a slight reduction of – 0.3%. So you can see that at the height of Covid-19, that’s when growth started coming out. Kenya as a country, went through Covid-19 in a very strong manner. Fatalities were managed, they were in the 5,000 to 6,000 range. Any fatality is not positive but relative to the fatalities of 7 million globally sub-saharan Africa and Kenya for that matter did very well. Economically the the growth in 2021 and 2022 as the country came out of Covid-19 was actually quite exemplary at 7.5% and 5.5% in 2022.
Similarly, we saw our business grow significantly Citi today versus last year and year on year growth for published first-quarter numbers, we grew roughly 10%. And on the back of a 5.5% GDP growth same period, we’re growing two times the GDP. So that means that we are not relevant to our customers. We are facilitators of capital and growing that two times GDP growth is really where we should be sitting as a business, to put capital into the into the economy and to support our customers. Coming out of that Covid-19 environment, those numbers are important, why? They demonstrate resilience of not only our customers but also our own banking model. It also demonstrates the resilience of our own economy as a country, the diversification of our own country in terms of industries that have grown during this period. If I give you a comparative, growth figures from either the EM or the developed economies you’ll obviously see that sub-saharan Africa and Kenya for that matter did exemplary from a growth perspective.
So to answer your question, our business continued to have a relatively strong and steady growth year-on-year on the published first-quarter numbers as I’ve told you, those were 10% year-on-year and we are still seeing that trend in the second quarter as of June 2023. We have not yet published our numbers for June but we’re still seeing a fairly good performance from our portfolio and our business year-on-year.
OO: In terms of projections, do you see this growth of 10% continue into the year?
MM: It is a very challenging environment that we are in now if you look at some of the macro headwinds that businesses are going through right now and if we look at the international environment where again we still have an ongoing conflict in Europe, we also may experience another shock in the second half of the year. We have had interest rate increases in the US by almost 500 basis points to tame what has been a fairly strong inflationary environment not just in the US but also in Europe and the UK, and in other parts of the Globe. The global environment remains challenging and growth forecasts prospects for the global economy remains challenging.
Domestically, we’ve also had our challenges as you probably know with an elevated cost-of- living that has that is coming from an inflation in Kenya of 8%.
We have had increasing interest rates that will make credit more expensive, slow down in demand slowdown potentially in growth and we still have what I would call some residual noise in the political cycle. It’s nothing really to be overly concerned about. To us we view that as as a normal process for any country that has a functioning democracy. So that residual noise will play out and it will lead to some sort of conclusion at its own time. So we expect the Kenyan economy to grow probably about 5% to 5.5% in 2023. Again, we are cautious to make sure that we support our customers through this environment. We have got challenges around, you know the currency has also been under pressure from the broader global economy, the strong US Dollar, the increase of interest rates in the US which has had impacts on emerging markets and frontier market currencies. The Kenya shilling is no exception, it has also had that pressure. So to answer your question directly. We are cautiously optimistic that we will grow our business in the second half of the year. We are also quite optimistic that Kenya will have positive 5% to 5.5% GDP growth. There will be some headwinds in the second half of the year, but all else being equal, I think we should come out at the end of the year, with a reasonable outcome both from the economic picture in Kenya and from our business as Citi.
OO: Let’s dig a little into the geopolitics and and the macroeconomic environment in Kenya. I remember when we last spoke before the elections last year, you were quite optimistic that we were going to sail through the election peacefully and you were right. I mean, that’s exactly what happened. But well, the political turbulence in the aftermath isn’t over. The push and pull right now is about the high cost of living. To what extent do you see these issues affecting our economic growth. Our economic policy under the new government is quite radical. The Finance Act 2023 has introduced new taxes and increased existing ones. The government is proposing expenditure cuts. Are you happy with what you are seeing in terms of the direction of this economy is taking in the medium-term.
MM: I will answer this question in two ways. One, as a corporate citizen that has been here for 49 years, celebrating 50 next year and we will be here for the next 50 years. And secondly as a Kenyan, because I am a Kenyan. Citi is a corporate entity that has seen many economic cycles. Economic cycles come and go, right, and we’re here as a long-term player and Kenya has very attractive growth prospects ahead of it, in spite of the challenges that we are going through. We have an elevated cost-of-living, why? Because inflation is high, 8%, today, primarily because of high food and high energy prices and those are parts of the inflation basket. Today we have a currency that has weakened because of increase in interest rate globally, particularly the US interest rates which has had an impact in terms of the relative strength of the dollar versus emerging market currencies and frontier market currencies.
Three, we have a Finance Act that is currently going through what I’d call a legislative process that has now moved to a process of challenge in the in the courts. It is important for us to first appreciate that in any democratic society, the fact that we’ve got different arms of government functioning as they are is a positive. The fact that we have an act that is being subjected to challenge in the right forums is positive.
The right to picket, the right to demonstrate in any democracy that is a constitutional democracy is important. So what is happening with the protest is not unusual and we’re not the only country that is having protests around the high cost of living. I can name and number of countries in in the developed west, in the global north and in our part of the world. So it is important not to take an overly an critical view of these challenges. They will come and go.
When you are I spoke and the election was ahead of us, there were all sorts of naysayers who were saying Kenya is going to fall off a cliff and burn but the elections came and went, the president was Inaugurating a month later. And here we are Kenya has not burnt, we are still here and the country still has positive attributes going for it. In addition to the growth prospects I talked about.
So yes, elevated cost of living, protests around the around some issues and in a normal constitutional democracy that should happen, people should be able to express their views whether its in a formal challenge like the Act going through the court process or through pickets and protests that are within the bounds of the law. So does that scare us as Citi? No. We have been through multiple economic cycles and this is another economic cycle that will surely come to pass. I think what we can do as an organisation is to be balanced in how we approach a number of these challenges and make sure that we support our customers, employees and our stakeholders through it. The Finance Act is is an important piece of legislation that is critical to how the government funds its operations and it’s still has to go through the residual or the remainder of this court process, but we will get past it. There will be an outcome that has to meet the needs of government and the needs of the taxpayers and the and the broader population as I call it from a Kenyan context. So, I don’t want to see the glass as half-full or paint a picture of doom and gloom. No. We have been through many economic cycles. This will come to pass and I’m sure that the outcomes will meet both the needs of the sovereign and the needs of the taxpayers in the manner that makes sense.
OO: Let’s talk a little about the geopolitics, The Russia-Ukraine war is still going on. Nobody expected it to last this long. A lot of people thought that it would be a quick win for whichever side or there would be a resolution of one kind or another. Yet it is still here with us and the impact has been felt globally. Even locally, the increase in the price of fuel, cooking oil among others is being blamed on it. How do you see this panning out going forward? Are we at a stalemate where things might be like this for a while or are you optimistic that thinks will resolve in one way or another?
MM: You ask an interesting question and it’s a question that we all want to know how it plays out. Because one of the things that we’ve been grappling with and one of the big conversations we’ve been having with customers is what I call the 3Rs -Russia, Rates, Recession. Increasing interest rates, risk of recession and what happens with Russia- Ukraine. This is a complicated geopolitical conflict that is still going on. The armed conflict element of it is still ongoing and there is still different schools of thought in terms of how this could play out.
Right now I would be remiss if I was to say to you that we have a very clear picture of how this actually plays out, but, their are schools of thought that I can share with you that are fairly well informed in both cases. There’s a school of thought that talks about a political settlement at some point between the the two combats – Russia and Ukraine and potentially other stakeholders who for one reason or another, either energy or insecurity in Europe believe that a negotiated settlement is the way to go. So that could be one scenario that comes to the table sooner rather than later to the extent that an energy insecure Europe, a Ukraine that feels that there is no positive traction to continue the ongoing struggle and a Russian domestic public that gets tired of the war from a domestic point of view. So those three factors could force potentially, a conversation. That’s one school of thought.
There’s another school of thought that believes that this could be a prolonged conflict that continues to go on on the basis that one side or both parties do not feel that a compromise is possible or palatable. Then it becomes a prolonged conflict that goes on for a period of time.
Which school of thought will prevail is anybody’s guess. If I knew, I would be doing something else, but to be honest we can only hope for a resolution in the near-term, because the longer the conflict goes on the more impact it has globally on other stakeholders and on the actual combatants themselves, particularly Ukraine. The amount of damage and loss that has that actually gone into this conflict from just a human loss of life perspective is huge. That’s my perspective, it’s not clear how this plays out, but I think the hope is that a resolution takes some form of reasonable shape sooner rather than later. The prolonged conflict doesn’t really help anyone in my view.
OO: I have two more questions to ask. Let me start with the simmering tussle between the US and China. There’s a lot going on on that front and I think recently, the US Secretary of State was in China so at least they are talking, but I think the impact of this tussle on the global economy could be huge. How do you view this? Do you see it as something that is worth worrying about? Is it bothering you at Citi, in terms of what it might do to the Global economy.
MM: You know, these are the two of biggest global economies, right? So there will be natural rivalry between them whether it is in the technology space, the geopolitical influence in Africa and other parts of the world. This competition between the two, what I’d call anchor global economies will continue. This is just how things are. For me when you ask if it would it bother us, it is only in the event that there is potential conflict or economic sanctions that start or emanate from one side or the other, then has global impact and global spill over, but today geopolitical positioning, competition for influence, geopolitical posturing through economic policies in different parts of the world and in Africa is a good way to gauge ones position. Spheres of influence will continue to shift so no it’s not a concern for us.
We operate globally with in the context of these these two anchor economies. We have a large business in China and of course a global business in the rest of the world anchored out of our head office in the US. So, no, it’s not a reason for concern and we view it as as natural rivalry that will be there from the two global largest economies. That’s really how we approach this scenario from where I sit.
OO: Let’s talk about the push by a number of countries in Africa and also the so- called BRICS to reduce the influence of the US dollar as a global currency. Is this something that is good for us in Africa and for the developing world? What about the rest of the global economy?
MM: It is a good question, but there’s nothing new here. The dollar has been a global currency, a global reserve currency and a global currency of trade for a very long time. If you recall they’e been conversations around, you know, digital currencies being a medium of trade -bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies. The BRICS are desirous of introducing the global alternative anchored on gold, so a return of the gold standard. Today, we are seeing trade being settled in different currencies -Indian Rupees, Chinese yuan or countries are doing bilateral arrangement where they are opting to also use different means of settling trade.
We see this as an evolving area, providing optionality, right? So, today if you trade in US dollars or Euros or you choose to trade in the Chinese Renminbi or Yuan, again, these are options that are developing and in the fullness of time, yes, you will see other options to the dollar but to me nothing is new. This is all stuff that’s been around for a while and it is still a journey. Today, the dollar is quite established as a means of trade. Is there going to be some option around digital currencies through CBDC -Central Bank backed digital currencies or cryptocurrencies. Other EM alternatives, like we’re starting to see from the BRICS, these will develop over time but they are nothing new, nothing to loose sleep about.
OO: I’ll give you the opportunity to pick up on any issue that you think we may not have covered which of course is relevant to our discussion.
MM: What I want to close with is that we are going through interesting times. Domestically as Kenyans we can speak about many things, the challenges that we are going through but it’s also important not to loose sight of the opportunities that we have.
We have what I’d call a fairly dynamic global environment wether it is interest rates, currencies or geopolitical conflicts. And this element of a poly-crisis is with us. Multiple crises that are happening at the same time, but we are still able to navigate with some measure of confidence.
Two messages; one, don’t over stress about everything we’re going to have multiple crises as businesses, so start from the perspective of how you will be navigating 2 or 3 crises every year as the starting point. Because if you start from zero crisis, then you’re not in the right space. As a businessperson start with 3 or 4 crises as your baseline then think about how you navigate the rest of the year.
Two, let’s also not loose sight of the opportunities that we have, whether it’s here in our domestic environment or not, irrespective of this crises that have the ability to consume us. We should also appreciate some of the positive things that are happening. For my Kenyan brothers and sisters specifically, even after this finance act, even after these protests for democratic space, even after these challenges we will still have a country to look after. So, the message here is that we are all stakeholders. We all have a responsibility to Kenya whether it’s a corporate level at an individual level, to make sure that we come out of this cycle properly. This is an economic cycle, a political cycle that we’re going to go through and for sure we will come out of it. It maybe six months down the road or 9 months, but we will come out of it.
So, for us we are quite steady at Citi in terms of are we approaching this environment? And the current challenges, be they global, be they domestic, we will be around to serve our customers. And we will be around for the next cycle and the next cycle and the next one. So I want to leave you with a thought that these are obviously very challenging times but the glass is half-full. We don’t completely believe that it’s very dark, very gloomy. I think it is dark as before dawn, we will come out of this in due cause. I think there is hope to just stay the course. Keep on doing what you are doing and do it right.